Have your say & ask the experts

aliEnRIK:

Tarquinh:

I'm willing to bet I could improve the sound of many systems no matter where they are on the power grid without recourse to mains filters, conditioners, fancy power cords or spells from the HiFi book of magic.

 

Im intrigued Tar ~ by doing WHAT exactly? Mine are already on a solid hifi rack. My speakers are completely solid and slightly 'toed in' for best effect etc. Where would you go from here? 

Missed this, apologies Rik. Easy - equipment upgrades are the answer, and might just work out cheaper. I'm always puzzled why people seem to spend a lot of time and money fussing with bits that, if they do improve the sound, do so marginally whereas addressing the part that makes the most dramatic change, the components, gets somehow forgotten. It's a bit like fussing whether you have the authority when you're on the bridge of the Titanic rather than turning the helm to avoid the iceberg.

However I think you're happy with your system, so I'd probably do no more than send over a bottle of decent wine.

Tarquinh:

aliEnRIK:

Tarquinh:

I'm willing to bet I could improve the sound of many systems no matter where they are on the power grid without recourse to mains filters, conditioners, fancy power cords or spells from the HiFi book of magic.

 

Im intrigued Tar ~ by doing WHAT exactly? Mine are already on a solid hifi rack. My speakers are completely solid and slightly 'toed in' for best effect etc. Where would you go from here? 

Missed this, apologies Rik. Easy - equipment upgrades are the answer, and might just work out cheaper. I'm always puzzled why people seem to spend a lot of time and money fussing with bits that, if they do improve the sound, do so marginally whereas addressing the part that makes the most dramatic change, the components, gets somehow forgotten. It's a bit like fussing whether you have the authority when you're on the bridge of the Titanic rather than turning the helm to avoid the iceberg.

However I think you're happy with your system, so I'd probably do no more than send over a bottle of decent wine.

No worries Tarquinh

Wine accepted  

trevor79:

No, you have it. Your maths are correct, but that is before you take into account what else is plugged into the Isotek and the ring main. So it could be marginal at times. The important question is, what does it sound like and does the music appear better at certain times of the day? It shouldn't, and the music should possess an effortless presence on your system.

Thanks Trevor for clarifying that. Can you please help with one more point - I assume that the rated max power output of 150 watts per amp only happens when the volume is at maximum or very high, whereas during normal listening, the power output would be much less than 150 watts?  Eg. if listening at one third volume, then power output is about 50 watts? (Okay, volume & power may not have linear correlation but I hope you understand my point?)

At the moment, I have my 2 power amps plus the pre amp pluggged into the Isotek and I love the "flowing" sound at whatever times of the day, whether or not there are lots of electrical machinery activities around the house or outside, so I think the Isotek is doing a good job, certainly better than what the Tacima did but one would expect that.  Thanks again Trevor.

Tarquinh:

Easy - equipment upgrades are the answer, and might just work out cheaper. I'm always puzzled why people seem to spend a lot of time and money fussing with bits that, if they do improve the sound, do so marginally whereas addressing the part that makes the most dramatic change, the components, gets somehow forgotten.

That is true up to a certain point.  It would cost considerably more than the costs of mains cables/conditioners to replace components and materially improve the sound of an expensive system (worth say more than £3.5K).  The laws of diminishing returns kick in and the more you spend, the less improvement you get back proportionally speaking. So a lot of people spend a few hundred pounds to wring the most out of their system, rather than spend more than a thousand pounds to replace a component (assuming the law of thirds apply).  This is even more true as you go up to more expensive systems of over £5 to £6K.

But it is all about proportionality, hence it would not make sense spending £500 on mains cables/conditioner to try to improve a £1.5K system, much better to switch components, especially speakers which tend to make the biggest difference in terms of improvement vs costs.

AKL:

Tarquinh:

Easy - equipment upgrades are the answer, and might just work out cheaper. I'm always puzzled why people seem to spend a lot of time and money fussing with bits that, if they do improve the sound, do so marginally whereas addressing the part that makes the most dramatic change, the components, gets somehow forgotten.

That is true up to a certain point.  It would cost considerably more than the costs of mains cables/conditioners to replace components and materially improve the sound of an expensive system (worth say more than £3.5K).  The laws of diminishing returns kick in and the more you spend, the less improvement you get back proportionally speaking. So a lot of people spend a few hundred pounds to wring the most out of their system, rather than spend more than a thousand pounds to replace a component (assuming the law of thirds apply).  This is even more true as you go up to more expensive systems of over £5 to £6K.

But it is all about proportionality, hence it would not make sense spending £500 on mains cables/conditioner to try to improve a £1.5K system, much better to switch components, especially speakers which tend to make the biggest difference in terms of improvement vs costs.

AKL, I'd love to agree with you but the problem is that sonic benefits if any of mains conditioners and mains filters remain highly debatable.

Even if there were benefit from conditioners or cables,  I  still don't think that a system over a certain price would benefit more from adding a mains conditioner or a mains filter than it would from changing your amplifier or speakers. Taking your own system for example, I'm fairly certain you'd notice a bigger difference if you swapped your amplification to Naim, Unison Research or Primare, or if you changed your Spendors for Sonus Faber at or above the same price level than if you added a mains conditioner. Upgrades don't necessarily have to cost more, either. 

As to power cables, I'll leave it to Bryston:

"When you plug your power cord into the wall outlet you are in 'SERIES' with all the wire on the other side of the wall all the way back to the power source. The small length of power cord from the wall to the amp is insignificant compared to the miles of wire it is connected to. As long as the power cord can deliver the current and voltage required to drive the amplifier to full power it is as good as it can get."  

Tarquinh:

AKL:

Tarquinh:

Easy - equipment upgrades are the answer, and might just work out cheaper. I'm always puzzled why people seem to spend a lot of time and money fussing with bits that, if they do improve the sound, do so marginally whereas addressing the part that makes the most dramatic change, the components, gets somehow forgotten.

That is true up to a certain point.  It would cost considerably more than the costs of mains cables/conditioners to replace components and materially improve the sound of an expensive system (worth say more than £3.5K).  The laws of diminishing returns kick in and the more you spend, the less improvement you get back proportionally speaking. So a lot of people spend a few hundred pounds to wring the most out of their system, rather than spend more than a thousand pounds to replace a component (assuming the law of thirds apply).  This is even more true as you go up to more expensive systems of over £5 to £6K.

But it is all about proportionality, hence it would not make sense spending £500 on mains cables/conditioner to try to improve a £1.5K system, much better to switch components, especially speakers which tend to make the biggest difference in terms of improvement vs costs.

AKL, I'd love to agree with you but the problem is that sonic benefits if any of mains conditioners and mains filters remain highly debatable.

Even if there were benefit from conditioners or cables,  I  still don't think that a system over a certain price would benefit more from adding a mains conditioner or a mains filter than it would from changing your amplifier or speakers. Taking your own system for example, I'm fairly certain you'd notice a bigger difference if you swapped your amplification to Naim, Unison Research or Primare, or if you changed your Spendors for Sonus Faber at or above the same price level than if you added a mains conditioner. Upgrades don't necessarily have to cost more, either. 

As to power cables, I'll leave it to Bryston:

"When you plug your power cord into the wall outlet you are in 'SERIES' with all the wire on the other side of the wall all the way back to the power source. The small length of power cord from the wall to the amp is insignificant compared to the miles of wire it is connected to. As long as the power cord can deliver the current and voltage required to drive the amplifier to full power it is as good as it can get."  

As I've said on numerous occasions now I noticed a significant improvement when I added a Nordost Shiva to my system which already had a Merlin Tarantula on it. So much so that I then spent a further sum on 2 Clearer Audio Silverlines with upgraded plugs. Now that means I'm either mad, stupid, deluded or pleasantly surprised. Given that I could sell all 3 cables on and realise £400 (ie get my money back, or I could keep them...and I've chosen the latter, it must say something.

jase fox:

clown:

AKL:

Some conditioners restrict the power being supplied to Hi Fi components (and can strangle the sound dynamics as a result), hence many people say you should try not to use the Tacima with heavy duty components like power amps.  Others say that their conditioners can handle enough power throughput to give plenty of headroom to power amps and therefore will not strangle the dynamics.

Here is a simple question from someone not learned in these things -- if a conditioner can handle max current of 10 amps continuously, can it give enough headroom to a power amp which puts out up to 150 Watts of power normally and up to1,500 Watts peak transient power?? 

And will that conditioner give enough headroom to handle TWO of those power amps??  I have in mind my Isotek Minisub conditioner which has two outlets capable of handling 10 amps, and 4 outlets capable of handling 6 amps.

I know I am mixing current (amps) with power (watts) and the two aren't the same, and I know Watts = Volts x Amps, but can anyone answer the two questions above??  Trevor79??  Anyone?

 

will try plugging my amp into mains rather than tacima conditioner, to see if any difference in sound.

I put my amp directly into a spare mains socket & although it was good i did however prefer it plugged into my block with the silencer connected aswell.

I saw my isotek reviewed elsewhere (Not allowed to post it here)

But it made clear improvements to a Musical Fidelity 500 amp (very VERY good amp with monoblocks inside)

As for mains leads ~ the braided type have been 'measured' to lessen RFI (Same as a conditioner)

Armoured and braided will also prevent some EMI from entering them

RFI AND EMI have been 'measured' to effect amps