Have your say & ask the experts

Let me clarify that this was not in a sony centre matthew,it was an article in "pixel" magazine,it is a leading publication covering dsc and dslr,s from diffrent manafacters.it has a light harted approch on other storys as well,and many true storys from dealers in that field.If people get offended then im sorry it always seems to get blown out of all propotion on this forum.it seems when you make some comments people take it the wrong way.We are all human at the end of the day. Lets just enjoy the things that we do have.The public have never had it so good,All this new tech out and we still moan or be negative.

A trade magazine, AFAIK...

I am going through the demo process before an upgrade of my amp and speakers and wanted to cover the bases from other brands, to know if I should change, or just go further up the scale from those I have already.....

Went to a Naim dealer in Surrey and he insisted on me hearing the kit "as Naim should sound", so refusing to let me use my powerblock/conditioner or own speaker cables .....

I was not overly impressed with the sound of the kit, all-in-all, despite the high cost [he had set up kit costing far more than my suggested budget - since if THAT level of kit didn't excite me then unlikely that any Naim stuff would]

He kept selling me on the Naim sound - it's strengths blah blah - rather than leaving it to the kit to impress me of it's own accord - seemingly trying to talk me in to liking the presentation being correct, rather than understanding that I know what I'm looking for and when I hear it, I'll buy the kit that gives me that.

Anyway - have since been to another shop (my usual, as it happens) and demo'd stuff and found that x-factor moment I was looking for.

Just don't understand why a supposedly good hi-fi shop has to be so evangelical, trying to tell me something is correct, when I'm not overly impressed - I gather others have had similar views (so I hear, now) ........ a shame. 

 

Acciesboy:

On the flip side...if I walk into a store and say "I want to buy an ABC, what is your best price?", then I am mighty disappointed to be quoted the RRP and no sign of any discount. I realise they have listening rooms, loan units, advice, etc, all on tap, but I don't need any of that sometimes, thank you very much, so don't charge me for the use of it! I do, however, accept that I should pay a bit more for having instant access. Also, if I have travelled some distance to get to the store, remember that is my time and my expenses (petrol, parking, etc) I have used, so you need to meet me half way a bit. There has been some investment on both sides, RRP only discussions will inevitably lead to the loss of a sale.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, and appreciate you have illustrated the downside of buying from websites...but are you actually suggesting a retailer pay for your petrol? Have you tried that at Tesco? I've encountered customers wanting expenses when they are returning a faulty item before, but to expect us to pay travel costs when you are making a purchase is frankly ridiculous. Also, this 'Best Price' thing is geting a little old. If you are a regular customer, and/or buying multiple items, then it is possible depending on the products that something can be worked out. If you walk in off the street and expect discount even though I've never seen you before, you will be disappointed. We are not robbing you- we are trying to run a business, and have calculated the best price we can offer for an individual item which covers our costs and makes enough profit for us to remain a going concern. You work hard to earn money - well so do we...

Kaybee, please make it clear which retailer you work for.

 

Brisk:

So today I decided to have a stroll around the dealers in Yeovil, a quick google will reveal both. The 7oaks was ok until I told them what amp I was using, see below, and then I was bombarded with request to upgrade taking advantage of the current trade in offer with Cyrus. Ok this is a great deal but I only paid 450 for the new V2 a few months ago, I have a very limited budget and the extra expense is not an option at the moment, what I am really after is some new speakers. “Oh no” I was told, “you must upgrade to amp, the new 8XD is far superior”, and something like, “You would be a fool to pass this opportunity”. I left the store shortly afterwards because the dealer failed to address my enquiry.

I really don't understand dealers like this, it's beyond my comprehension. Here you have a customer who is willing to give the dealer money for a pair of speakers - what's wrong with letting the guy try a few pairs of speakers out and letting him walk away happy? The dealer gets a sale, the customer is happy with his purchase. A new relationship is forged.

Dealers like this wonder why they're quiet at the moment. Yes, it may be to do with a supposed recession, but it's probably more down to the fact that more and more people are avoiding the store (and every other store for that matter) and buying online because they've been treated badly and can't be bothered with the hassle. The worst thing is they assume all specialist dealers are the same, which affects the decent ones. It's those of us who haven't seen any sign of a recession that must be doing things right.

 

......so today I visited the other independent outlet who shall remain nameless. There were no other customers in the shop, I had a feeling that there hadn’t been for quite some time. I was sprung upon from the demo room outback and I was instantly quizzed on the nature of my visit. I felt like I couldn’t just say ‘I’m browsing’ so I explained that I was looking for some new speakers. Again I mentioned my amp and he recoiled, the look of disgust said it all, I looked around and saw a shrine of Naim kit. Personally I like the Naim gear, but its a bit out of my budget. The dealer told me that Naim is what I wanted, and nothing else compares. I’ve heard of these folks before so I thought I would humour him for a while whilst he told me about the history of mission/cyrus, and how it is all made in china. Now I know parts and components are usually sourced from the Far East but there is still some element of a Britain in their brand, he thought not. Ok so what is wrong with that I asked, but obviously I was speaking out of turn, he was already telling me about Naims history and his many visits to their HQ, and something about transistor testing in something called the naughty room!?? He then turned on the hi-fi press, informing me that they are all bias, but that he doesn’t really read any publications and that he’s really not all clued up on recent developments. I thought this would be a key element to a dealers responsibility, obviously not.

This is probably even more common. Regrdless of whether what you keep is better than what the customer has or not, you can't just tell him he needs to replace what he's just bought! Help is needed to get the best from that amp. By all means inform the customer of his upgrade possibilities further on down the road, but the last thing to do is try and ram it down his throat!

I feel sorry for consumers like yourself that get treated this way. All I can say is what has been said already - there are decent dealers out there, it's just unfortunate that you have to go and find them!

Great post David.

Thanks  :)

Good thing that you're moving to the (relatively) big city! I'm from Bristol and I must say that the Sevenoaks shop is excellent, I had a good discussion with two members of staff, even though it was a Saturday, over the merits of Monitor Audio against B&W, both had their opinions. Obviously they left it up to me to decide what I wanted to buy. They didn't isolate the products that I was looking at in reference gear, they let me choose what I'd put with it to hear what I would get if I matched the compnents with the ones I already had. They even let me sit back and watch Blue Planet on a Pioneer that I obviously had no intention of buying while I waited for my dad to pick me up.The only downside is that their sale which was supposed to end on the 31st August, which made me rush to buy MA BR2s (£189) before the RX1s were available to listen to on the 1st September, when I popped in to collect some cable later in the week the sale was still on, although there may have been a reason for this.

The RS here is also good, the store manager was excellent and up front about the products that they offer when I spoke to him. I had a less than satisfactory experience at Audio T, on enquring about B&W CM1s instead of the 685s I was looking at they told me that at that price point they move to specialist hifi brands, which left me confused as to what B&W was in their eyes. They also had very limited range, although they could have different products shipped from other stores it would take time and after bringing something in from Swindon I wouldn't feel that I could say no thanks as easily.

Worse still was a specialist shop in York (where I'm at uni) where upon enquiring about low-mid priced amps I was told that I could not get anything other than the £450 Cyrus V2 with matching CD player, anything else would be utterly ridiculous and that DACs were a waste of money below £1000 so using my PS3 as a source with a cheaper DAC would be unthinkable. To be fair to the guy there, he's a small independent retailer trying to make a sale but I thought it was over aggressive.

But overall I think you'll be much happier shopping in Brizzle.

kaybee15:

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, and appreciate you have illustrated the downside of buying from websites...but are you actually suggesting a retailer pay for your petrol? Have you tried that at Tesco?

No offence taken. Actually, Tesco give you money off vouchers for fuel after you have purchased in the main store, so they are already doing so! Also, not many supermarkets charge RRP on all their products all of the time, they have already discounted up front. I don't think many specialist dealers would want to be compared to supermarkets either.

I've encountered customers wanting expenses when they are returning a faulty item before, but to expect us to pay travel costs when you are making a purchase is frankly ridiculous.

No, this is not what I am expecting at all...what I am suggesting is that dealers need to recognise the time and effort, and sometimes money, a consumer invests in making the right purchase. Interestingly, Richer Sounds in Glasgow will pay your parking at local car parks whether you have bought anything or not. They are in the very centre of the city and there is no free parking for miles. I'm not a big fan of RS, but fair play, thumbs up for making it easier for their customers and prospects to justify a visit to the store.

Also, this 'Best Price' thing is getting a little old. If you are a regular customer, and/or buying multiple items, then it is possible depending on the products that something can be worked out. If you walk in off the street and expect discount even though I've never seen you before, you will be disappointed. We are not robbing you- we are trying to run a business, and have calculated the best price we can offer for an individual item which covers our costs and makes enough profit for us to remain a going concern. You work hard to earn money - well so do we...

I have no problem with dealers making a profit, you are a business and like you say, need to make money to remain in business. That said, for any dealer to part me from my hard earned cash, they need to provide me with value for money

The point I am making is that if I have made the effort to go to a store, then I have made an investment of my time and money. Same as you have invested to be in business. If you are offering me something of value then I should be prepared to pay for it...and I have done so in the past and will do so again in the future. I value advice, test facilities, loans of equipment, etc. If I am not using them, then no, I don't want to pay for them. If someone else does make use of these facilities, then they are of value to that person and they should be charged a premium for it. Just because someone else is willing to pay it, doesn’t mean I should if the same product and services has less value to me

I bought an amplifier from a dealer who often frequents this forum. I paid less than RRP, but more than I could've bought it online. I knew exactly what I wanted, they had it in stock and were happy to do a quick deal. They didn't know me from Adam. Interestingly, I had gone into another dealer (who doesn't post here), who were nearer to my home and they refused to budge from the £1500 list price. I am sure they were mighty relieved when I left empty handed and they could keep it for one of their more familiar customers to eventually come in and take it off their hands. Who knows, they may still have it in stock. And surprisingly enough, I have walked past that store many times since and admired their displays, although I haven't set foot in the place. I subsequently went back to my amp dealer and had a play about with various stands. They spent some time with me and let me try out my model of speakers for height...the measuring tape came out, I used their sofa to see where the speakers would sit, etc. I happily paid full RRP for the stands, despite being able to potentially buy them elsewhere cheaper. The dealer put in time and effort, and this had a value for me, so I should pay for that.

The value of an item is not the price the manufacturer suggests it should be sold at. The value of an item is what the market is willing to pay. If I am buying any other items or services with a perceived value then they should be factored into the cost. When I ask for a supplier’s “Best Price” then I would appreciate it if they did indeed take into account what value they are providing me. I would also hope they take into account that if I was a complete stranger to them, they may only have one chance at making an impression on me, and more importantly, of demonstrating their value. If I came in off the street to your store, knowing exactly what I wanted and asked for a discount from RRP, then you say I would be disappointed. Well, you would only disappoint me once, and I would, I am sure, delight you by never darkening your door again. How many disappointed prospective new customers return to your store to spend money? If I wanted advice and help then I am sure you would have been more than able to service my needs and I would happily have paid a price which reflects your efforts, but by not recognising the work I have already done in research to decide on my chosen purchase before I walked in your door you are de-valuing my efforts and not providing me with value for money.

We are not robbing you- we are trying to run a business, and have calculated the best price we can offer for an individual item which covers our costs and makes enough profit for us to remain a going concern

This is perfectly acceptable. I find it unacceptable when it happens all too often that the only price is the RRP. Using your logic, isn’t it amazing how often the manufacturer’s RRP is the exact price needed to cover costs and make a profit. How do they manage this without really knowing anything about the cost base of their dealers? Despite dealers up and down the country having different cost bases depending on rent, investment in staff training, facilities, marketing, etc, the RRP is the same for every dealer. Or is it that some dealers appreciate the meaning of value more than others, and realise if the cost of sale is lower, then the price of an item can, and should, differ from transaction to transaction? How much is it for me to buy an ABC from you, and how much is it for me to spend an afternoon with one of your staff in one of your demo rooms and eventually buy an ABC? The cost to the retailer of these transactions is different. Why shouldn’t the price be different? Either I am having to pay for something I am not using (your facilities and expertise), or you do not see any value in your services and don’t feel the need to charge appropriately. Going back to the Tesco example…a tin of beans may be cheaper in a Tesco Extra than a Tesco Metro. Why? Because the Metro is round the corner and is convenient for me, so I pay more for this. If I want to pay less, I need to get in my car and travel several miles to get to the nearest superstore. My choice, the convenience has a value.

The key to all of this is value. Dealers who recognise this and provide their customers with value for money will thrive, those who don't will eventually fail. Value can be a discount from the list price, it can be additional services, it can be a cup of coffee, it can be putting on a DVD for a child who looks bored to keep them quiet long enough for the accompanying adult to make a decision. Recognising and demonstrating value is what customer service and professionalism is all about. 

I think we're talking about the difference between retailers and dealers here...

Andrew Everard:

I think we're talking about the difference between retailers and dealers here...

A very good distinction Andrew.

One of the main issues as I see it is the expectation of service both from a dealers point of view towards the client as well as the other way round. I agree to a good extent with Acciesboy, I simply can not provide a high level of service ( and actually provide it not just claim to) and offer internet prices on all products as well. I can however very easily offer mail order service and mail order prices or indeed internet service/ prices if need be. Our business choice is service first but that is not always the first thing our customers come looking for and a great number of dealers do realise that.

 

One shifts boxes, the other offers the consumer a deal, be it in the form of extra service, added value, or whatever...

A demonstration is part of the deal that you get with a shop, it's not free for the retailer to put them on, even if you leave the cost of premises with a listening room and setting up a proper demo room aside, if you use your retailer as a demo room and then buy online you're costing them money. Expert advice, face to face service, an easier route for returning items, it's all part of the deal.

 For most items too, the price difference is not all that great. As Andrew says, you're buying different things.

Great post,but not everyone thinks like that.We seem to live in a blasie way of life noadays.We all love a bargain we are only human...But i think some times it gets out of hand.People who value good staff,will put there trust in them and the same in turn.they will buy in-store.people that use retailers and then go on-line deserve everything they get if they run into problems.I buy what hi-fi every month.and i use this site.But i would be gutted if the magazine stopped being produced.cos people found"no value left in the magazine"And i can get it on-line for nothing.It seems to be the way of the world now.