Have your say & ask the experts

DIY Dual Mono Power Amps

Last post Mar 12, 2010, 11:01 PM by Craig M.. (106 replies)
Sort Posts:
Page 7 of 8 (107 items)   « First ... < Previous 4 5 6 7 8 Next >

Posted on Sep 06, 2009, 11:58 AM

301073

Re: DIY Dual Mono Power Amps (for use with the Beresford DAC)

OK....temporarily retracting the last line in my last post I will post a reply in the hope that I can clear up the points of disagreement.

We both agree thar ACV is measured as the +ve and -ve  components of an AC waveform...yes?

RMS voltage is extrapolated from the peak to peak measurements....yes?

So if the measurements are made from peak to peak, then they are taken using the +ve AND -ve part of the waveform. The -ve peak and the +ve peak

Lets not complicate this by using PP and RMS in this example below...just call it ACV to make life easier OK.

Therefore an AC voltage of say 240V is the value of the FULL AC waveform..NOT the +ve component on its own and NOT the -ve component on its own..a PEAK to PEAK.

Therefore the value of the +ve part is ACV/2 and the -ve part is ACV/2 as well. Or 0 to 120V +ve and 0 to 120V -ve.

So what we have is an AC cycle measured from the highest point on the +ve peak to the lowest point on the -ve peak. The RMS value is then extraoplated from that. RMS = PtoP x 0.7071. If you want to go back to P to P then use  1.4xxx.

Where you have been making a mistake is in taking the AC measurement and assuming that it is for either the +ve OR -ve part of the waveform. It is NOT, it is for a FULL cycle from 0V to +ve peak down again to 0V through to the -ve peak and back up again to 0V.

I hope that clears it. I have tried to explain as best I can.

Quad Classic II/40 amps. Music First passive pre. Tannoy Sterling SE. Cables : Mark Grant Cables, Nordost.
Samsung NC10 to V-DAC. Technics SL1200 Mk2, RB301, Goldring 2100, V-LPS

Posted on Sep 06, 2009, 12:17 PM

301111

Re: DIY Dual Mono Power Amps (for use with the Beresford DAC)

We need a judge to decide on the winner of this debate. Big Smile  Anyone else know stuff about electricity? Or will we have a three way debate then?
- -

Posted on Sep 06, 2009, 12:35 PM

301120

Re: DIY Dual Mono Power Amps (for use with the Beresford DAC)

idc:
We need a judge to decide on the winner of this debate. Big Smile  Anyone else know stuff about electricity? Or will we have a three way debate then?

No judge required. The laws of physics have spoken.......Wink

Anyways...its not a competition......

Quad Classic II/40 amps. Music First passive pre. Tannoy Sterling SE. Cables : Mark Grant Cables, Nordost.
Samsung NC10 to V-DAC. Technics SL1200 Mk2, RB301, Goldring 2100, V-LPS

Posted on Sep 06, 2009, 3:14 PM

301111

Re: DIY Dual Mono Power Amps (for use with the Beresford DAC)

raym87:

OK....temporarily retracting the last line in my last post I will post a reply in the hope that I can clear up the points of disagreement.



OK. Good. Thanks for your patience.

raym87:

We both agree thar ACV is measured as the +ve and -ve  components of an AC waveform...yes?

RMS voltage is extrapolated from the peak to peak measurements....yes?

So if the measurements are made from peak to peak, then they are taken using the +ve AND -ve part of the waveform. The -ve peak and the +ve peak



Yes, absolutely. The RMS takes into account the positive and negative values of the sine wave.

raym87:

Lets not complicate this by using PP and RMS in this example below...just call it ACV to make life easier OK.

Therefore an AC voltage of say 240V is the value of the FULL AC waveform..NOT the +ve component on its own and NOT the -ve component on its own..a PEAK to PEAK.

Therefore the value of the +ve part is ACV/2 and the -ve part is ACV/2 as well. Or 0 to 120V +ve and 0 to 120V -ve.

So what we have is an AC cycle measured from the highest point on the +ve peak to the lowest point on the -ve peak. The RMS value is then extraoplated from that. RMS = PtoP x 0.7071. If you want to go back to P to P then use  1.4xxx.

Where you have been making a mistake is in taking the AC measurement and assuming that it is for either the +ve OR -ve part of the waveform. It is NOT, it is for a FULL cycle from 0V to +ve peak down again to 0V through to the -ve peak and back up again to 0V.



OK. Now I think we are getting to the nub of the matter. You believe the AC voltage is +/- 120 volts. You state the following

RMS = PtoP x 0.7071

If we divide though 0.7071, we get

RMS / 0.7071 = PtoP

Therefore....

240 / 0.7071 = PtoP = 339.4

Therefore, each peak must be half 339.4 or +/- 169.7 VAC. Given this information, we can work out the RMS using first principals by multiplying the sine of each angle by the peak. This will create the sine wave for us. The RMS equals all values of the sine wave. Each value is squared. The mean is taken of these values. The mean is then square rooted to arrive at the RMS.

So, here follows a table which creates a sine wave of +/- 169.7 VAC.















DegSineWaveWave2
00.000.00.0
360.5999.79949.5
720.95161.726048.1
1080.95161.726048.1
1440.5999.79949.5
1800.000.00.0
216-0.59-99.79949.5
252-0.95-161.726048.1
288-0.95-161.726048.1
324-0.59-99.79949.5
3600.000.00.0
Mean13090.0
RMS114.4


You'll see that using first principals shows that the RMS equals 114.4 VAC. OK, so we don't have all possible values in the wave...so there will be a disproportionate affect on the mean by the zeros but whatever we do, it's unlikely to get up to 240 VAC....which is the RMS we are after.

I repeated the above exercise using my proposed values. I believe the positive peak is + 339.4 and the negative peak is - 339.4. So, multiplying the sine values by 339.4 gives....
















DegSineWaveWave2
00.000.00.0
360.59199.539797.9
720.95322.7104192.5
1080.95322.7104192.5
1440.59199.539797.9
1800.000.00.0
216-0.59-199.539797.9
252-0.95-322.7104192.5
288-0.95-322.7104192.5
324-0.59-199.539797.9
3600.000.00.0
Mean52360.2.0
RMS228.82


Again, the RMS isn't equal to 240 but I think you'll agree it's a lot closer.

I repeated the above using each degree over the sine wave and the results were an RMS of 119.8 VAC and an RMS of 239.7 VAC.

Perhaps I am still misundertanding but the maths, coupled with a foray into first principals, would tell me that for an RMS of 240 VAC, the peak voltage is 339.4 VAC and the peak to peak voltage is 678.8 VAC.

raym87:

I hope that clears it. I have tried to explain as best I can.



To back up my claims further, I tried to find an unequivocal statement from a british authority e.g. .gov.uk or something but I couldn't find one.
My useful(?) threads can be found here.

Posted on Sep 06, 2009, 3:22 PM

301166

Re: DIY Dual Mono Power Amps (for use with the Beresford DAC)

I give up....................................................
Quad Classic II/40 amps. Music First passive pre. Tannoy Sterling SE. Cables : Mark Grant Cables, Nordost.
Samsung NC10 to V-DAC. Technics SL1200 Mk2, RB301, Goldring 2100, V-LPS

Posted on Sep 06, 2009, 3:41 PM

301167

Re: DIY Dual Mono Power Amps (for use with the Beresford DAC)

OK. The only recourse then, is practical experiment. I'll try and do something tonight. My transformer produces a RMS of 25 VAC. After rectfication (and smoothing), I expect this to produce 25 * sqrt(2) = 35.4 VDC or there abouts. There should be some loses due to the diodes in the bridge (0.7 VDC each?) so around 33 VDC.

So I'll state my null hypothesis....

25VAC will produce approx 33 VDC after rectification and smoothing.

The experiment will serve to reject or accept this hypothesis.
My useful(?) threads can be found here.

Posted on Sep 06, 2009, 10:14 PM

301171

Re: DIY Dual Mono Power Amps (for use with the Beresford DAC)

OK. The results are in........

In the first picture you can see my rig, which comprised of an IEC power inlet module, a 160 VA transformer and a power supply module with onboard bridge rectifier and smoothing capacitors.


Test Rig.

My first test was to ensure that the correct voltage was being provided by the power inlet module. The reading I was able to take was 240.3 VAC. Remember, this is the RMS value. It's a pity at this point that my Fluke doesn't allow the measurement of peak and peak to peak values....but there you go.


Mains VAC (RMS).

The next step was to measure the VAC (RMS) being produced by the transformer. I was slightly surprised that this was 28.2 VAC.


Secondary VAC (RMS) produced by transformer.

This is three volts more than I was expecting and will impact the H0. Therefore, I will need to restate the H0 to match the available voltage.

So, 28.2 * sqrt(2) = 39.9 VDC. Each diode will lose about 0.7 VDC and there are four of them, making 0.7 x 4 = 2.8 VDC. So the expected VDC is 39.9 - 2.8 = 37.1.

H0: 28.2 VAC will produce approx 37.1 VDC after rectification and smoothing

The final picture shows the measured VDC at the output of the power supply module. Is is a little higher than I would have expected at 37.64 VDC but in my opinion it is near enough to allow H0 to be accepted.


VDC after full rectification and smoothing.

I have exhausted all possible further avenues for proving my argument...except finding that documented statement from a government (or similar) site. I spent some time trying to find this today and had to give up (the kids were bored). However, I am satisfied that the theory, foray into first principals and now the supporting data present a pretty convincing argument.

However, I am still open to further debate and accept my experience is limited.
My useful(?) threads can be found here.

Posted on Sep 08, 2009, 9:21 AM

301293

Re: DIY Dual Mono Power Amps (for use with the Beresford DAC)

I will try to clear the confusions.


1. AC voltage is very often quoted in RMS. It can also be quoted "peak to peak value" or "+/- value". 25 VAC RMS can be quoted as:
a) 25VAC RMS
b) +/-35 V
c) 70 V p2p
If you look at 25 V AC on the oscilloscope you will see a curve which crosses 0, reaches 35 Volts, then down to 0, down to -35 Volts and so on. Peak to peak this is 70 volts. Peak is +/- 35 volts. RMS it is 25 Volts.


2. Your transformer will give you much more than 25 volts AC because you forgot to add (a) regulation and (b) the 230V spec. Most transformers are wound for 230V to sit between 220 V European outlets and 240 V UK mains. Therefore in the UK you will get more than 25V AC and in Europe you will get less. Additionally you forgot to add regulation. As you draw more current from the transformer its internal resistance plays a part and the voltage drops. The more current you draw the more the voltage drops. The manufacturer quotes 25 Volts AC secondary as the worst case scenario, when the transformer is fully loaded to its maximum specification. But when you measure it with your meter, or when it is powering your precious amplifier which is idle, the voltage is increased as there is no load. Regulation is expressed in a % and it is typically larger for small transformers and smaller for big ones. From the top of my head I think a 160VA transformer would haave something like 7% regulation. Therefore at no load the voltage you would be seeing would be something like: 25 * 240 /230 * 1.07 = 27.91 V. If you rectify that you will be getting 39.5V DC on each rail, almost 80 volts across your two rails. This is very important because these (unexpected) voltages may easily destroy your electronics (eg the LM3886).

Posted on Sep 08, 2009, 7:57 PM

301793

Re: DIY Dual Mono Power Amps (for use with the Beresford DAC)

Thanks akis. Good to get a third view.

akis:

If you rectify that you will be getting 39.5V DC on each rail, almost 80 volts across your two rails. This is very important because these (unexpected) voltages may easily destroy your electronics (eg the LM3886).



Thanks for the warning but I assume that I am well within tolerances for the LM3886.
My useful(?) threads can be found here.

Posted on Oct 09, 2009, 10:27 PM

302143

Re: DIY Dual Mono Power Amps (for use with the Beresford DAC)

Disconnecting Network

Within audio equipment there are two grounds. These are signal and power ground. Audio designers usually like to keep these as separate as possible as noise from the power ground can pollute the signal ground. However, when these are connected directly to Safety Earth the result can be ground loops.

So what is a ground loop? Consider a CDP and an amp. Each are connected to earth in the wall via their mains plug. When you run electrical interconnects between the CDP and amp a local loop is created eg one can trace a connected path from the CDP through to the amp via the interconnect, through the signal ground in the amp to the Safety Earth, down the mains cable to the wall socket, along the earth wire to the CDP mains socket, up the mains cable to the CDP Safety Earth and into the signal ground.

What travels around this loop? Current created by, for instance, stray magnetic fields. These fields are generated by the transformers in the connected audio equipment. This circulating current gives rise to the characteristic hum in audio equipment and hum bars in video.

To overcome ground loops, a number of strategies can be adopted.

Firstly, something basic. You can disconnect the earth wire in the plug of either the CDP or amp. Alternatively, one can use a plug with a dummy (plastic) pin. People do actually do this and it does work. But what you are left with is a real risk of electrocution or fire.

Let's say a stray wire in the equipment with the removed earth comes detached and contacts the case. A sudden, massive spike in current will rush into the power/signal circuit and attempt to run to earth through the interconnects and into the equipment which is still connected to mains earth. These interconnects, which are not designed to handle the current involved, are highly likely to cause a fire. If you are unlucky, somewhere a component may fry breaking the path through the signal ground leaving you with a live case waiting to (possibly) kill you.

Another strategy is to "lift" the signal ground above the Safety Earth. To do this one connects all of the grounds in the equipment to a single point (star ground) and then place a resistor between ths point and the Safety Earth. This resistor serves to resist the circulating current travelling around the local loop and prevents the hum.

Again, however, should a fault occur on the PCB, the current will rush through the resistor which is likely to fail. We are then back in a similar situation as before. So, this approach is not generally recommended although you will see it being used in the DIY community.

The disconnecting network is similar to the resistor approach but uses more robust components which are ensured to survive the currents involved during a fault. Consider the picture below.


Disconnecting Network

The Safety Earth attaches the earth wire from the mains cable to the case. The zero volt line connects the network to the star ground. During normal operation the resistor lifts the internal ground and prevents the loop. The cap helps reduce noise. The diode bridge provides two paths to earth in the event of a fault. So, if one path fails there is another as backup. Moreover, the bridge contains very solid conductors making failure unlikely. The switch allows the disconnecting network to be bypassed (if a ground loop is absent) but still provides a route for the fault current to Safety Earth via the bridge.

This latter option seemed to be a pretty good to me and if it's good enough for Bryston (I've seen Bryston schematics which include exactly the same components as the disconnecting network), it's good enough for me!
My useful(?) threads can be found here.

Posted on Oct 10, 2009, 1:40 PM

316042

Re: DIY Dual Mono Power Amps (for use with the Beresford DAC)

Here's a good article to read if you would like to read a little further into earthing and ground loops in audio equipment.
My useful(?) threads can be found here.

Posted on Oct 30, 2009, 10:08 AM

316231

Re: DIY Dual Mono Power Amps (for use with the Beresford DAC)

This project is stalled at the moment. The reason? I'm having difficulty with wiring the thing together to my satisfaction. The Faston connectors aren't giving me the nice and tight connections I'd like. I'd also like to get some better hookup wire....
My useful(?) threads can be found here.

Posted on Jan 02, 2010, 12:16 AM

326203

Re: DIY Dual Mono Power Amps (for use with the Beresford DAC)

I came across this forum whilst looking for a chassis for my own diy amp.

I've gone for the same kit as you from chipamp except that it will be a single toroidal/psu driving a pair of amps in a single case.  I shall be adding a selector switch to choose from one of two sources and a volume control based on a stepped attenuator.

More of an integrated design rather than your two mono blocks but I can't wait to hear the result. 

I like your idea of mounting everything on a raised alloy sheet.  That means I can start the installation before my case arrives.  The case I want is one where the two heat sinks are external and used as the sides of the case. 

Why build my own amp?  The one I have been using for the last 23 years (Harmon Kardon PM645 VXi) has finally failed.  Having looked inside I was disappointed to see how much it actually cost in components against what I actually paid.  Now that I only have CD and the odd iPod there seems little need for all the additional inputs so time to build something simpler, cleaner and with a darn sight better sound. 

 Regards

 Nick.W 

Posted on Jan 02, 2010, 12:06 PM

360585

Re: DIY Dual Mono Power Amps (for use with the Beresford DAC)

Why not start your own DIY thread to cover the build?
My useful(?) threads can be found here.

Posted on Mar 12, 2010, 8:04 PM

360710

Re: DIY Dual Mono Power Amps (for use with the Beresford DAC)

Just had a bit of a read through this thread and I really must get the whole thing kick started again!
My useful(?) threads can be found here.
Page 7 of 8 (107 items)   « First ... < Previous 4 5 6 7 8 Next >