Have your say & ask the experts

Hi all,

I'm new to Hi-Fi and currently listen to my collection of lossless format music on my laptop with a Cyrus 6vs2 and Spendor S3e speakers.  As you might be laughing now... the setup needs improvement.  Cyrus' new 8XPd Qx amp seems a good upgrade considering the built-in DAC and the on-going promotion.  I'm planning to build a new media PC in the not far future, when I'll fit in a very good sound card.

My questions are that is the upgrade going to improve the sound a lot if I connect my pc to the amp via USB?  Would the sound coming out from a decent PC sound card and my S3es be a mismatch for the 8XPd Qx (they probably would...)? I do want to stick with lossless format music on my PC because it's convenient but I'm open to any suggestions to improve the system.

Thank you.

Steve

I would never laugh, and besides you've got some good products there. Anyway, ideally you want your computer to be doing as little as possible as far as the music processing goes. If you get something like the excellent Cyrus 8XPd Qx (quite a mouthful), getting a new soundcard is redundant. You want to get the music out of the computer digitally which can be done with either a USB port which every computer has or even better, with an optical out port which some computers have. Often time, especially on laptops (Mac's in particular but some Windows laptops too) the headphone out is also a mini-optical port and that would be the ideal way to hook your computer up to the Cyrus int amp. If your computer doesn't have an optical out, you can hook it up via USB which is also just passing the music digitally to the DAC inside the Cyrus to process or you can add an optical port to your computer - which can be done via some soundcards which include an optical port - again though the soundcard would be made redundant since it wouldn't be processing the sound it would just be passing it off digitally.

Certainly stick with lossless as its the best bet for quality/space unless you have other concerns but you haven't mentioned any so I won't confuse the issue. Soundcards can be beneficial to the sound coming from your computer if you are not using an exteranal DAC and/or amp. For instance if you are just plugging your computer up to some active speakers, then a soundcard can certainly improve the sound quality compared to relying on the soundcard built into the motherboard but that doesn't apply to what you want to do so save your money. 

There is some debate, but optical connections are generally thought to be better than a USB connection if you have a choice as a USB connection relies on the computer a lot more and the computer has lots of other things to be worrying about. There are some very expensive DAC's where the DAC controls the sound on the computer but they are very rare and expensive. Still, a USB connection to the Cyrus will be far superior than a soundcard as the Cyrus DAC is a quality component and deals with the jitter quite well (jitter is of particular concern with music played back via a hard drive over USB) and the Cyrus amp is of course excellent according to What Hifi - can't comment on the speakers as I haven't heard music through them but Spendor is very well thought of. Hooking up your current or future computer to the 8XPd Qx will be a big upgrade, after that a speaker change would be the next biggest upgrade you could make as the computer you use will make little difference. 

Thank you for the advice MCD0234.

I just found out that there is a S/PDIF out on my laptop so I'll pop into the local shop for a listening sometime this week.   I've heard that the 8XPd Qx DAC should produce sound that's equivalent to that from a CD6SE so shall compare them two when I'm in the shop?

If a PC sound card just passes the digital signal without processing it I might not need a separate sound card at all then?... instead, a sound card on a PC motherboard should do the job just fine.  In that case, the connection between the PC and the amp will be USB I guess.

I am contemplating the same upgrade although my starting point is a Cyrus 6vs rather than the vs2. It seems that there are two questions. Firstly, how much better is the amp in the 8XPd Qx than the 6vs/vs2 and secondly how much better is the DAC than an external DAC such as a DAC Magic. If these are vastly superior, are they £900 superior, against the £200 of just adding a DAC Magic? Also how does the DAC in the Qx compare with the DAC in the regular Qx?

I'm currently using a Fubar III with a USB connection and I'm happy with the sound quality. However, I would say there are times when something goes wrong with the sound and I do wonder if this is electical interferance affecting the USB port or the computer becoming overloaded. I have a feeling that it is the power adaptor for the Fubar but I'm not yet sure.

But unless the amp and the DAC are a significant improvement I wonder if it is £900 worth?

I keep asking myself similar questions because indeed, is the sound going to be almost a grand better?  I have listened to CD8se+8XPdQx+Spendor A5.  The CD player is fantastic, which makes the overall result obviously superior than my current system.  Now I'm hoping to hear very good sound playing lossless files with the new amp next week.

I don't know the answers to the questions but I know that the new amp gives 70w per channel (vs. 40W per channel), which should improve the sound quality.  8XPd Qx also has that port for the PSX-R power supply, which 6vs and 6vs2 don't (don't know if you are planning to do this in the distance future).  In terms of the DAC, what I know is that the DAC in 8XPd Qx should be at least the same if not much better than DAC Magic.  The Cyrus DAC should also work seamlessly with it's own amp so that I dont' suppose there will be "something goes wrong with the sound" when you listen to music.  All these come in one single box with the upgrade, without which, certain improvement is impossible for a system based on 6vs/6vs2 (not in a neat way like this).  Is it worth £900? - Maybe.

Sorry if I sound like a Cyrus salesman.  I'm not but I'm quite tempted for the upgrade right now. I'd like to hear some argument.

All computers these days have 'sound card' abilities built into the motherboard, cheapest option but also generally poor results for quality hifi listening. A soundcard (motherboard nor add-on card) will not be used at all in your computer if you are hooking it up to the DAC inside the Cyrus 8XPd Qx. If you are using an external DAC, like the one in the Cyrus, you just want the computer to pass the digital information off to the DAC without doing any sound processing of its own - so no, you certainly do not need a soundcard.

Since you have a SPDIF out, it would be better to use that rather than the USB connection. There are some technical reasons for this as far as the way a computer works and also USB DAC's general inability to handle high resolution files but I don't want to overwhelm, so just stick to the SPDIF out on your computer and your done as far as computer sound goes. I'll leave the amp and speaker debate to others, although they are quality kit. 

The DAC inside the Cyrus will be a little better than a DacMagic, tuned to the Cyrus house sound and with the advantage of a simplier path (ie. less cables are always a good idea). As to the cost/benefit, well I wouldn't even want to step into that landmind as that is a decision for each person I guess. Best of luck (I'm currently deciding between the Cyrus 8XPd Qx, Bel Canto and Naim kit mysef)!

kuangben1202:

I keep asking myself similar questions because indeed, is the sound going to be almost a grand better?  I have listened to CD8se+8XPdQx+Spendor A5.  The CD player is fantastic, which makes the overall result obviously superior than my current system.  Now I'm hoping to hear very good sound playing lossless files with the new amp next week.

I don't know the answers to the questions but I know that the new amp gives 70w per channel (vs. 40W per channel), which should improve the sound quality.  8XPd Qx also has that port for the PSX-R power supply, which 6vs and 6vs2 don't (don't know if you are planning to do this in the distance future).  In terms of the DAC, what I know is that the DAC in 8XPd Qx should be at least the same if not much better than DAC Magic.  The Cyrus DAC should also work seamlessly with it's own amp so that I dont' suppose there will be "something goes wrong with the sound" when you listen to music.  All these come in one single box with the upgrade, without which, certain improvement is impossible for a system based on 6vs/6vs2 (not in a neat way like this).  Is it worth £900? - Maybe.

Sorry if I sound like a Cyrus salesman.  I'm not but I'm quite tempted for the upgrade right now. I'd like to hear some argument.

I agree that it is very tempting but when I tried to find out more about the DAC in the 8XPd Qx I couldn't find any further information. On the Cyrus website there is nothing that indicates why it is better than the standard DAC. So I phoned Cyrus and got no better answer. I was told that I would need to speak to their R&D head who was not around. For £900 (with the summer discounts!) it is a lot of money to just guess that it is better than a DAC Magic! I listened to the new amps at the Bristol show and couldn't say I was blown away or that I could notice much difference in the sound to previous Cyrus amps. To me it just sounded like the Cyrus house sound. Better, but I'm not sure it is £900 better? But in fairness I'm not sure it was a good test given the environment.

Although there is an advantage in reduced amount of cables I'm not entirely convinced by that argument. I bought the Fubar III partly because I was unimpressed by the headphone amp in the Cyrus as well as wanting a DAC to experiment with. I then found that the Fubar III couldn't play high-def 24-bit/96kHz audio files and was limited to standard CD quality of 16-bit /44.1kHz. So I'm looking for a better DAC anyway, but don't want to go back to the Cyrus for headphones unless the 8XPd Qx has a much better headphone amp. Again, I couldn't get an answer on this. The tempting solution would be a Benchmark DAC1 Pre (which has a good headphone amp) if there was a small power amp to go with it. On the Cyrus website I couldn't find anything that stated whether the DAC in the 8XPd Qx could play high-def files and again the person at Cyrus had no idea what I was talking about. It maybe that I don't need/want to play high-def files but for £900 I sure want the option! I'd at least like to know whether high-def files sound as good as people say. I suspect 8XPd Qx does play them but I'd like to be sure.

With regard to the power output surely the question is whether or not your 6vs2 is driving your speakers well or not? Although more power makes it easier to drive a wider range of speakers, if you are happy with what you have then whats the point? I would agree that the option of an external power supply would be nice but my question would be whether this money is better spent on a better amp in the first place. I don't have an answer, but I think it is a reasonable question to ask.

On the issue of USB versus S/PDIF I have read so many different articles/forum posts that argue for both that I've failed to come to a conclusion. Many also argue that the quality of the USB cable makes a massive difference, as well as whether power is actually taken from the USB port! I fail to understand either but I'm open to be educated. I also understand that XP is limited to playing 16-bit /44.1kHz files due to it using a program called K-Mixer for it's audio, although this can be resolved by installing a program called ASIO4ALL. Apparently Vista plays 24-bit/96kHz without modification. So it depends on which operating system you are running as well as the connection. There are also USB to S/PDIF devices and I've never got my brain around why one would want one and what it is capable of. To my knowledge there is no reason why 24-bit/96kHz files can't be played via USB but I also understand that most external DAC's don't support this level via their USB inputs. The Benchmark is one of the few I know that do. This is a section from the Benchmark website

"The USB interface of the DAC1 USB features Benchmark's unique AdvancedUSB technology. This USB interface is completely bit-transparent. In other words, every sample of digital audio is transferred from the computer to the DAC1 USB without modification. The DAC1 USB is natively compatible with Windows Vista/XP/2000 and Mac OS X. As a native device, there are no drivers or other invasive software required to install or configure. The DAC1 USB is a true plug-and-play DAC USB, and is designed to begin playback immediately after the unit is connected to a USB port for the first time.

Unlike previous native USB audio interfaces, Benchmark's AdvancedUSB Audio technology supports 24-bit audio at sample-rates up to 96 kHz. It is very important to have a 24-bit USB path, even for 16-bit playback, because certain computer-related functions can increase 16-bit audio to 24 bits. If a 16-bit USB DAC is used, 8 bits of every digital audio sample would be truncated. Truncating digital audio causes severe, non-musical digital distortion. Benchmark's AdvancedUSB interface ensures a full 24-bit digital audio path to avoid truncation distortion."

When I consider whether or not the 8XPd Qx is a good upgrade or not I can't help but compare it with my NaimUniti. The Uniti has a CD player, DAC, Internet Radio, DAB/FM, amp and Music streaming built-in for £1995. Cyrus wants £900 just for the amp & DAC, and that is only over the summer for existing Cyrus amp owners! I don't want to start a war as to which has the best house sound, but I find the Uniti a more involving listen than my 6vs by some considerable margin. I've yet to be convinced that the 8XPd Qx is that much better and if Cyrus can't be bothered to put enough information on their website, that does not help! In fairness to Cyrus I should also say that I have so far failed to find out whether or not the Uniti can play 24-bit/96kHz files but I haven't actually asked Naim. Somehow it didn't seem to matter so much once I'd bought it!!!!!!

Perhaps someone from WHFSV or someone else on the forums has more info on the DAC in the 8XPd Qx?

DLD, you are probably right that these new Cyrus amps are a bit over priced for what they are.

Does any company make high end Hi-fi PC sound card?  I had a quick look and most well-reviewed PC sound cards seem support 24-bit/96kHz and even 24-bit/192kHz with significantly lower price than the USB DACs.  Am i missing anything here?  If I were to fit one of these in my future pc and keep the 6vs2, the sound should be improved moderately, shouldn't it?  The reason why I said this is that I see people spend thousands and still craving for their "perfect sound".

People are getting way too entangled in DAC spec's, spec's can be important but they don't tell anywhere close to the whole story. Naim for instance is famous for using DAC's that may have been around for a while and may not have the most stunning spec, yet they tweak and put lots of effect into their CD players and/or products and get them to sound wonderful.

Now, I'm not saying spec's don't have any meaning, for example I have some high resolution music downloads so I wanted to make sure that whatever I buy can handle 24/96 files. I already have the phenomenally good Benchmark DAC, so I'm not so concerned about the DAC. In the Cyrus, the upgraded DAC upconverts the signal to 24/196 amongst other benefits. 

Yes, computer sound cards have handled 24/96 and 24/196 files for quite some time now. It would be a moderate bump in quality, but getting the sound processing (ie DAC) done outside of the electrically noisy computer will always have benefits. If you are going down that road now, you'd be much better off spending the money on even a cheapish DAC like the DACmagic then spending the money on a soundcard. Computer soundcards are not designed with HiFi in mind, they are made for gaming and 5.1 surround sound. Yes, a Creative soundcard will be better than relying on the motherboard but there is much better ways of spending the money in my mind. If you really want to go the soundcard route there are a few high end models, such as RME HDSP 9652 Hammerfall DSP or the Lynx AES16 and of course they both handle 24/196 files. Again, these high end soundcards are not made for high end hifi however, they are designed with studio engineers and the people who make music for the most part. Good luck with whatever you decide, I'm bowing out of this discussion now. 

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet (I don't have the time to read through all of the posts above), but Cyrus claim that using a USB connection will result in the amp showing up on the computer as a soundcard via plug and play, thus bypassing anything already in the computer.

ffiish:

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet (I don't have the time to read through all of the posts above), but Cyrus claim that using a USB connection will result in the amp showing up on the computer as a soundcard via plug and play, thus bypassing anything already in the computer.

That is pretty standard I think. I'm not sure if all do (perhaps someone else knows?) but certainly my Fubar III does. One of the advantages of that is if you use multiple computers and switch via a KVM. Each computer will then see the USB audio device immediately you switch. Some KVM's will even allow you to switch keyboard/video/mouse between computers whilst leaving the audio to go through a fixed computer via USB. However, you do need to watch out to make sure the KVM is using USB 2 as a number of the KVM's are still only supporting USB 1.1. This can be very handy if you use both a home computer and a work notebook.

mcd0234:

People are getting way too entangled in DAC spec's, spec's can be important but they don't tell anywhere close to the whole story. Naim for instance is famous for using DAC's that may have been around for a while and may not have the most stunning spec, yet they tweak and put lots of effect into their CD players and/or products and get them to sound wonderful.

Now, I'm not saying spec's don't have any meaning, for example I have some high resolution music downloads so I wanted to make sure that whatever I buy can handle 24/96 files. I already have the phenomenally good Benchmark DAC, so I'm not so concerned about the DAC.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Specs are incredibly important in terms of capabilities. Try playing high-def video without a high-def player! You may get it to play but you won't be seeing high-def. I wonder how many people have bought HD-Ready or Full HD TV's but are not using them with a high-def player. I'm sure many are claiming major improvements whilst others are wondering what all the fuss is about!!! And currently both high-def audio and video specs are very confusing. Either you, or I, are very confused as I've heard of 24/96 and 24/192 audio but not 24/196!

If you are saying that the specs are insufficient to determine the sound quality then of course they aren't. That is why we all try and listen to the equipment we are trying to buy, although it is not always easy in the computer audio age as few DAC's are available for audition and few HiFi dealers have the computer expertise to configure them correctly even if they were. I doubt you could find a HiFi dealer anywhere that could (or would!) demonstrate the difference between S/PDIF and USB!

mcd0234:

In the Cyrus, the upgraded DAC upconverts the signal to 24/196 amongst other benefits. 

I'd much appreciate it if you could list the other benefits of the Cyrus DAC and give a link to where you found such information. I've done a number of Googles and failed to find anything.

Don't see the 8XPd Qx as an expensive DAC!  It is a very serious amplifier that also happens to have a DAC in it (CD8SE level).  If it is too expensive the 8XPd also has a DAC in it just not as good a one (CD6SE level).

 It is not the best option for adding speakers to a laptop but if you want to build a hifi system around a computer, you'll find few better solutions that Cyrus.  Just look at the rave reviews they get from this magazine.

kuangben1202:

DLD, you are probably right that these new Cyrus amps are a bit over priced for what they are.

Does any company make high end Hi-fi PC sound card?  I had a quick look and most well-reviewed PC sound cards seem support 24-bit/96kHz and even 24-bit/192kHz with significantly lower price than the USB DACs.  Am i missing anything here?  If I were to fit one of these in my future pc and keep the 6vs2, the sound should be improved moderately, shouldn't it?  The reason why I said this is that I see people spend thousands and still craving for their "perfect sound".

There are many people who claim that they get better sound out of a sound card via S/PDIF and an equal number who claim that they get better sound via USB. There are a number of high-end sound cards on the market but those aimed at the professional audio market tend to be very expensive. Many also claim that the operating system makes a major difference and a vast number of people say Apple is far superior. However, what doesn't seem to be in dispute is that whichever route you take it is the DAC that makes the difference. So even if you don't take the Cyrus upgrade route you still need a good DAC. It comes back to how good the DAC is in the Cyrus and how much better is the new amp in comparison to the 6vs2. If you have a laptop with some good quality RIPs on it I'd suggest you take it along to your local dealer and see how it sounds. Just don't expect them to be able to provide much to compare it with though. Usually, I've found they can only offer comparisons with a Sonos and/or Squeezebox... or maybe the Naim HDX.

I had a little windfall recently and upgraded to a Cyrus DAC XP, but before that I had a DACMagic and a Cyrus PreVS2 (preamp) going into a pair of Cyrus X Power (power amplifiers), and later a pair of Cyrus Mono X (power amplifier).  I was and still using laptop/iTunes as the source and wirelessly connected to the Hi Fi via Apple's Airport Express.  

The point of all this background info is that I listened to a Cyrus CD8se and CD6se (which respectively contains the DAC modules of the 8XPd Qx and 8XPd), but my ears told me to keep the DACMagic instead of buying either of those CD players.  I was more than happy with that DACMagic set up until the windfall tempted me to upgrade the DAC.  That should tell you something about the quality of the DACMagic and may help you to decide the route you wish to take, or my apologies if the above confuses you even more!!